Curse

Willy Rockwell · Nov 24, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

I am disappointed by the prevalance and acceptance of runners in the game. A runner takes money from players to guarantee to get them to their next destination without having to fight all the way. In fact, people using runners don't have to do anything except stay online. As soon as the runner makes it to the next town, the client has arrived.

In mountain climbing there is a practice called "short-roping". If I want to get to the top of Mt. Everest but cannot make it by myself, a Sherpa guide will tie himself to me and drag me to the top. However, even with short-roping I have to place one foot in front of the other all the way up and down.

I have seen level 9 players in Ring of Fire and Thunderhead. They got there by hiring runners. But what is the point? They are not learning skills and would be of no help in a group. In Beacon's Perch most of the people are looking for runners to get them to Droknar's Forge, which is after Ascension. And just what do they hope to do in Droknar's, fit in with groups of infused veterans?

I wish any character who used a runner more than twice would automatically receive a brand on his forehead that reads "lamer". It is the challenge of the quest that makes the game fun, you get no satisfaction from being carried from town to town.

Ok that's my opinion. What's yours?

Arcien Trueflight · Nov 24, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

I can understand and accept the concept of running to a certain place because you want something. I myself want to have my Me/R run to the desert, but not because I plan to be of use, simply because I want a Dune Lizard for a pet. ^_^ Everyone has their reasons, and most people who can afford to get run to Thunderhead and the Ring of Fire have already gotten their or beaten the game beforehand to pay for the trip. However, I in no way encourage it: Getting run to an out of the way town is one thing, getting run through entire countries of the game is quite another. My biggest problem is the few times I've used a runner (I attempted to use one to get me to Copperhammer mines) I ended up paying half beforehand, and the runner turned out to suck and left the game. I've heard similar stories from friends as well, and while I can understand the runner trying to make sure they get paid for their services, it's pretty ridiculous for anyone to fork over money with absolutely no knowledge if they're going to get what they paid for.

So yes, running has it's uses at times, but it shouldn't be the first thought when starting a new character or getting to a new area... The game is meant to be played and enjoyed, not completely skipped over for a few gold.

aron searle · Nov 24, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

I have seen level 9 players in Ring of Fire and Thunderhead. They got there by hiring runners. But what is the point? They are not learning skills and would be of no help in a group. In Beacon's Perch most of the people are looking for runners to get them to Droknar's Forge, which is after Ascension. And just what do they hope to do in Droknar's, fit in with groups of infused veterans?

My view is that people like this do not affect me, so i leave them to it.

If a runner wants to get to the desert at level 10 or whatever thats fine with me, just dont expect to join my group i dont take dead weight.

The only thing i have against it is that first time players should not be run, but they dont have any excuses as anyone with a brain can tell that paying someone to run you is a shortcut.

My sec charachter was partly run, so of course im for it as it let me skip parts of the game that i did not like. I only have a problem if it is abused, like twinkers in the low arenas.

End transmission

Suuk · Nov 24, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Well, imagine the following:

You play since the E34E, through the betas into release. You finished the game 3 times with your monk, warrior and ele. Now you want a ranger, necro and a mesmer. (leaving one slot for PvP.)

What do you do? Play the whole game again even though you beat it three times before? Or do you skip some parts in order to get your char lvl 20 and ready for PvP?

In addition to this case, which of course is my personal case, I bought a second account. And I can assure you neither of the 4 chars on this account are going to 'do' the game without running. In fact, two chars are ascended now. Number 3 and 4 are waiting in Sanctum to get into the desert...

Edit: while typing this post, two other persons posted as well. I totally agree with the fact that 1st time players shouldnt be ran through the game. Also, I think they need to fix something in the lower lvl arenas, because it is really broken now with lvl 10 chars with elite skills and drogs armor.

Slimcea · Nov 24, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

If it doesn't affect you, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. You don't have to group with them, they being in Forge doesn't result in monsters mysteriously doubling in strength or anything, so what's wrong? About the only downside is the increased spam in chat/trade in towns, and that's pretty damn easy to ignore as well.

Let's face it, once through the game is fresh, twice you can do it with your eyes closed, and the third time through, it gets extremely tedious, to the point that even skipping most of the useless/pointless quests, progression still isnt' fast enough.

Leonof · Nov 24, 2005, 02:12 PM // 14:12

You should know that even Anet doesn't have a problem with runners. They said that it was a neat idea and they are fine with it.
It doesn't really upset the game and it actually helps in some occasions. It is sometimes nice to have a low level person along with you that has Drok's armor and even elite skills. They are less likely do die and more than likely to help your chances of winning.
Like the others, I think a person playing for the first time shouldn't get run. it takes away the learning experience and the newbie would have ended up not learning the basics. If you have finished however, totally different story. They already know what they are doing and probably know quite a lot to not bother redoing all over again.
The only downside I see is overpowered lowlevels in the Ascalon/Yak's arenas. Then again I find those arenas a joke anyway so why bother.

Mahanaxar · Nov 24, 2005, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Runners don't affect my game experience, so I don't care.
When I create a new char, I'm able to bring him to Thunderhead in 25/30 hours, playing all coops and side-quests with skill reward.
But if anyone is too bored/lazy to do it, no problem for me if he get a run. It's his money and his time.

Of course, I'm not gonna invite a lev 7 in Hell's Precipe.

And first chars should not be runned.

Hockster · Nov 24, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Chances are most first time players will never be able to afford a run anywhere. Most typically do not have 3K extra by the time they hit Beacons.

Anyway, how does this affect you at all. Someone is level 3 at THK. Big deal, it's not even that new anymore. They just want to hang out at Grotto with the other poseurs and preeners. I'd rather have them all there than anywhere else where I might see them brag about their l33tness.

Sekkira · Nov 24, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slimcea

If it doesn't affect you, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. You don't have to group with them, they being in Forge doesn't result in monsters mysteriously doubling in strength or anything, so what's wrong? About the only downside is the increased spam in chat/trade in towns, and that's pretty damn easy to ignore as well.

Let's face it, once through the game is fresh, twice you can do it with your eyes closed, and the third time through, it gets extremely tedious, to the point that even skipping most of the useless/pointless quests, progression still isnt' fast enough.

That's one thing.

Example: A level 20 Elementalist Monk. They hire a runner to get them to the Temple of Ages. Why? They've never been to the Temple of Ages before. Why? It's too hard.

Now tell me why they are being run there? They're no good to any teams there, because obviously they don't have the skill to get there in the first place. This person is going to waste people's time and money in the Underworld and Fissure of Woe. It's no different than the higher level places in the game.

And these runners spam districts to offer their services.

What can they do about it? It's their way of making money, I don't know, it's not up to me. However it's hurting my play time and many others.

I personally will not be run anywhere by anybody for anything, even if it's free. Why? I've done it many times before, so why waste my time? To learn. To experience. To understand.

If two people join my team in Thunderhead Keep or Tombs or GvG and one of them says they have not been run anywhere with this character and done every mission and quest up to this point/in the game while the other says they were run there because they've played the game many times before with other characters and they've played PvP a few times with that setup, assuming they are not lying, I'll take the person who persisted over the person who got run there.

How are you supposed to understand how skills work and how to use them properly if someone is running between zones while you sit there and watch or have a coffee? How are you supposed to learn how to heal if there is no healing to be done? How are you supposed to learn how to interrupt if there is nothing to interrupt?

I am not against running personally, hell, I'd probably use it myself sometimes if this overuse wasn't the case. But when it has the potential and forfills that potential to hurt mine and other people's play time, that's where I draw the line. Because of that, as stated previously, I am boycotting running. I stick to what I 'believe' (term used loosely) and will hold firm on it regardless of who will stand with me, if any at all.

Numa Pompilius · Nov 24, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willy Rockwell

I am disappointed by the prevalance and acceptance of runners in the game.

My main problem with them is that newbies grab runners because they don't know any better or because they've not yet learned the ropes (and by grabbing runners they never will). "Running for free" isn't help, it's spoiling the game for beginners. IMO. It doesn't help that it's much easier to find runners than to find a PUG to do a quest/mission/go to next town.

Quote:

In Beacon's Perch most of the people are looking for runners to get them to Droknar's Forge, which is after Ascension. And just what do they hope to do in Droknar's, fit in with groups of infused veterans?

Nope, they hope to get Droknars armor and possibly some of the elites off the nearest bosses, after which the first 1/2 of the game is much, much, easier. (Not to mention the buttwipes who do this to dominate in the Ascalon and Yaks Bend arena. I've a ranger I'm taking through the game, and in every match in Yaks Bend there was at least couple of guys with elite skills & droks armor.)

Quote:

It is the challenge of the quest that makes the game fun, you get no satisfaction from being carried from town to town.

That's the view of a PvE'er. For PvP'ers the PvE is mainly an annoyance they want to get through as quickly as possible, and cap the interesting skills they need for PvP. Although I don't really know why they don't just change secondary and cherry-pick the elites they want.

Hockster · Nov 24, 2005, 02:29 PM // 14:29

How are you supposed to know that the person you don't want to take can't play their character. Very foolish supposition.

Sekkira · Nov 24, 2005, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

How are you supposed to know that the person you don't want to take can't play their character. Very foolish supposition.

And that there is the flaw which I pointed out. A runner either does it for fun or the money. Running can be benificial, but for the most part, it has been exactly the opposite. The runner can't know and considering level has nothing to do with your understanding of the game, the people who put them on their team later on can't know either.

It is a problem. It needs to be fixed. How, I do not know. My stance is only one of the solutions. As stated before, it's easier to be run somewhere than it is to find a group willing to do it properly.

Pandanslesdents · Nov 24, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

My only concern with runners is that they make atrocious amount of money in not a lot of time.

Anet did everything they can to prevent players from farming, thus deniying people the way to make lot of money fast. Yet, they never did anything to prevent Droknar runners from becoming the richest players in the game... Go figure... Running people for money IS A METHOD OF FARMING

I don't have a problem with to possibility of making it to Droknar, but it should not be possible to run through it. You should have to fight your way there.

Rotgut The Unholy · Nov 24, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

If I have the money, and have already ascended once, why can't I do this.

Asplode · Nov 24, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

My opinion about runners is that those who have the money to be ran are generally on alts, and don't want to go through the tedium of the plotline again. Furthermore, they're just going to drok's to get their armor to play GW in easy mode, not to attempt skip everything. Remember, if missions are anything, it's 1 skill point and 2k experience.

aron searle · Nov 24, 2005, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

How are you supposed to know that the person you don't want to take can't play their character. Very foolish supposition.

I dont really care if they can play their charachter, if i have a the choice of taking a level 10 or 20 ill take the level 20.

Quote:

How are you supposed to understand how skills work and how to use them properly if someone is running between zones while you sit there and watch or have a coffee? How are you supposed to learn how to heal if there is no healing to be done? How are you supposed to learn how to interrupt if there is nothing to interrupt?

Im going on the assumption that you are talking about people running second charachters as i dont think first timers should run.
I really think this is a matter of skill and running dosnt affect it, if i was changing my build i would first practice it and think about what skills i was going to use before i went into a mission. The problem as i see it is people just sticking to a build they think works, and not really making an effort to improve it.

Quote:

My main problem with them is that newbies grab runners because they don't know any better or because they've not yet learned the ropes (and by grabbing runners they never will). "Running for free" isn't help, it's spoiling the game for beginners. IMO. It doesn't help that it's much easier to find runners than to find a PUG to do a quest/mission/go to next town.

My only problem with this is i do think they know better, i simply cant belive that people actually think that paying or getting a free run to somewhere is what was actually inteded for them to do, its a shortcut and they must know that.
As to finding runners easier than finding a pug to do the mission i agree partly, i had that with...

beacons perch
augury rock
amnoon oases
iron mines (if you wanted to fight and not rely on warriors running the "whole" way)

HawkofStorms · Nov 24, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Look at it this way. Go to augury rock and just sit in the channel (not international district

). You will here dozens upon dozens of requests for and ads for runners. Yet you will hardly ever here a request for a group. In my mind, many people run, not just veterans. Besides, veterans should be good enough at this game to get to Elona's reach from Augury with henchmen. Frankly, running makes it so that people are no longer willing to actually play the game anymore. It's quite pathetic actually.

Suuk · Nov 24, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Furthermore, they're just going to drok's to get their armor to play GW in easy mode, not to attempt skip everything. Remember, if missions are anything, it's 1 skill point and 2k experience

True. So, you can expect these people to get to know the skills, which set these people on par with the ones doing missions without the drognars armor.

So, the 'selection method' in the situation depicted by Sekkira is totally random. In fact, I would even go for the one who did the run and took quests for certain skills to complement his/her build. Why? Because this implies that this person actually was thinking about his/her build before entering the tombs. But again, this is all hypothetical, how do you call it theorycrafting? Better ask what skills they bring and why....

Shaquira · Nov 24, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

So what ARE the reasons for being run?

1. Getting droks armor and elite skills to dominate low level arena's
This is interfering with the enjoyment of others in a negative way and should be blocked/forbidden/frowned upon

2. Getting droks armor and elite skills to breeze through the missions and quests in easy mode.
This could influence the enjoyment of others in a negative way because the mission will be alot easier on the team. I think the person doing this should at least inform the team and let them decide if they will take him or not. If you do it with henchman you wil not interfere with the enjoyment of others and therefore i see no objection.

3. Skipping a part of the game because it is too difficult.
There could be several reasons for it ... be it not being able to find good enough team mates to do it, not being able to do it with hench, being a bad player yourself or some other reason. Continuing to try and fail does not nessicarily teach you to become a better player. Being in a group with a better player that takes the time to educate you will.
Now here we have a counterargument to the ppl saying they don't want these "bad" players in their group. Why not take some time and MAKE them better. Most ppl will listen to constuctive crtitisism.

4. Other reasons we have not thought of:

Like

Going to desert and through ascension without doing quests because you want to be able to switch to a secondary profession of your choice before taking these skill giving quests. This is what i am doing with the characters on my second account. They are all lvl 18-20 with just their pre-searing skills.

Conclusion

If it doesn't hurt other players you should be allowed to do whatever you like in this game. Just as IRL

The moment you influence the enjoyment of other players (positive AND negative) common sense should decide if it is allowable or not.

Shaquira

Sekkira · Nov 24, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaquira

Conclusion

If it doesn't hurt other players you should be allowed to do whatever you like in this game. Just as IRL

The moment you influence the enjoyment of other players (positive AND negative) common sense should decide if it is allowable or not.

Shaquira

Agreed.